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On Google Talk, I apparently talk a lot - David McNett (Nugget) — LiveJournal
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Fri, Aug. 26th, 2005, 04:06 am
On Google Talk, I apparently talk a lot

(Updated 29-Nov-2006 -- I replaced all references to my old domain, slacker.com, with my new domain, macnugget.org)

I've been quite a chore to be around today and the root cause of my anxiety is Google's recent announcement of their Google Talk service. Everyone in my geek circle of friends seems to be all lathered up in excitement over Google's decision to enter the mess that is the Instant Messaging world. Much of it being speculation about how Google intends to do to IM and VoIP what they did with webmail in April 2004 with their launch of Google Mail.


Talk is Cheap


It's almost impossible not to paint the comparison between this week's Google Talk announcement and Google's deft grab of web mail last year, dragging it kicking and screaming from the slums of the net. Google polished up webmail and turned it into a first-class net citizen. An @gmail.com email address is premier -- enough so that it's easy to lose sight of the sad state of webmail we had previously. Remember the ugly days pre-2004? Back then sites would routinely block inbound mail from the popular webmail services. The Hotmails (pre-Microsoft), Rocketmails, and their ilk were way more trouble than they were worth. Blocking them was often the only sane way to stem the flood of abuse and crap that came from them -- nevermind trying to sign up for an account on a website using a webmail address. Although Microsoft's takeover of Hotmail may have started the trend, Google deserves the bulk of the credit for the perceptual shift we've seen since.

We've been here before


But I think that you have to go back a hell of a lot further to really grasp what might be at risk with Google Talk. You have to go back to the state of email before SMTP was the reigning protocol. There was a time when email was quite nearly as screwed up as instant messaging is today. When a person handed you a business card in 1991 the odds were pretty high that you'd have your choice from a legion of email addresses. There would be the ubiquitous CompuServe UID, a BIX id, maybe a GEnie address, FidoNet perhaps, Delphi, and Bob help you -- sometimes even a Prodigy account (the precursor to geocities if there ever was one).

People ended up having to establish presence on each of these separate networks. All the systems had their own unique quirks and limitations and the situation was a total mess. Human handshaking became a negotiation nearly as complicated as the modem protocols that hardware used.

"Yeah, so mainly I use GEnie"

"Erg, I'm not on GEnie any more. I stick mostly to BiX"

"BiX? Yuck. Are you on CompuServe?"

"Are you nuts? I just got a 2400 baud modem. Have you seen what they charge an hour for prime time 2400 baud access? How about Fido?"

"Yeah I'm on 1:231/250."

"Cool"

...and so the dance went any time you needed to email a new person.

Eventually the major service providers began establishing complicated gateways between the systems, but I'm not convinced that these hacks and their ad hoc and confusing demands represented an improvement. At best it worked but usually it just left you wondering if your mail really made it through. It was a solid win if your mail just made it to the right person on the same day and all in one piece.

In a short amount of time, coincident with the sudden wave of TCP/IP adoption in consumer operating systems, the SMTP email protocol began to take hold as the most effective common ground. Each enclave network began to add SMTP gateways for linking to the rest of the world. In what seemed almost overnight at the time, suddenly everyone was talking SMTP natively, Just Like That. Everyone could email everyone else and life was good.

It's tempting to draw parallels between the state of email in 1991 and the state of instant messaging today. You might even go so far as to say that since email obviously worked out just fine that Instant Messaging will follow a similar path. There are, however, a few crucial differences between email and instant messaging that might very well thwart a rosy outlook.

First, however, it might help to look back on how far instant messaging has come in the past ten years or so. . .

How did we get here?


Most people point to Mirabilis and their ICQ network as the birthplace of Instant Messaging, but in reality its roots go back a lot further than that. Modern instant messaging owes a lot to the old UNIX talk daemon, IRC, and even services like CompuServe's CB chat. Before ICQ there were PC-based chat networks like Tribal Voice's PowWow. Nonetheless, ICQ was the first to garner a lot of attention and enjoy rapid growth. Initially Mirabilis seemed satisfied with merely inflicting their torturous website on the public and produced a fairly lean and utilitarian IM client (the foghorn on startup notwithstanding). This was back in the days when PointCast Network was going to make a zillion dollars by showing you ads on your computer when you weren't around and everyone else was scrambling to make the best damn Portal Website the world had ever seen. So I guess you can't blame Mirabilis -- most of the marketing departments of the world hadn't quite gotten back from lunch to discover the Internet yet.

Mirabilis' ICQ client slowly approached a 1.0 release and started growing banner ads, annoying noises, and attracting the attention of the marketing people. ICQ started making news by "capturing eyeballs" and geeks started a brisk underground trade in earlier, less invasive versions of the client like they were fine wines. Knowing a guy who had hung on to the old 0.97a installer was like currency in some circles. The Mirabilis guys didn't notice because they were too busy buying the gigantic sheets of paper they needed to extrapolate their projected growth curve out from the 850,000 users they'd gained during the first six months.

But ICQ's competition sure noticed. Soon to follow were AOL's Instant Messenger, Microsoft's MSN Messenger, and Yahoo! Instant Messenger. All provided fundamentally the same experience as ICQ but with their own cosmetic interpretations. Users either ran all the clients or undertook Machiavellian schemes to convince all their friends and colleagues to choose "their" network. The latter approach rarely worked entirely, so many people succumbed to the first plan. It wasn't pretty.



As the IM "marketplace" grew and more people embraced it, there came to be a strange phenomenon where some users adopted only one of the four major networks and were absolutely convinced that "everyone" used their network and nobody used the other ones. Grouping happened geographically or within tight social circles and for the most part people found the situation tenable until they made a new friend from one of those other, weird networks. "Oh, you're on MSN? Nutty. I thought everyone used AIM" (That same statement, of course, could just as easily been believed in the reverse).

Third-party clients became more mainstream, initially to dodge around the increasing advertising embedded in the official clients. Nobody was quite sure how IM was going to translate into profits and it seemed like every nutty idea was tested along the way. Initially the networks actively fought third-party client connectivity but eventually that arms race dwindled to nearly nothing. A logical outgrowth of the third-party IM client world was the emergence of clients which could bridge the demarcation between the various networks. Clever developers gave us multi-protocol clients like gaim and Trillian which allowed users to just run a single application and connect to all the separate networks where they had accounts. Of course this required that people create accounts on all of the various networks, but plenty of users were willing to jump through those hoops.

So that's sort of where things ended up today. A mess but a known and well-understood mess. Third party client viability is fairly solid (mostly I suppose because the network providers have given up on generating a billion dollars of banner revenue). Mirabilis bowed out of the technology altogether and sold to AIM, which was an encouraging sign of some much-needed consolidation and simplification (Just ignore AOL's half-assed integration of ICQ which still isn't really done).

The situation is far from ideal, though. It's necessary to create no fewer than three accounts on the three major networks just to be able to reliably talk to all your friends. In some circles you'd better make that four and hang on to your ICQ account too. You're also faced with having to run a third-party client instead of the "real" client or you have to burden your computer with running a pile of them and suffer through the jarringly-different user interfaces that brings.

So what to do? If you've ever been inconvenienced or frustrated by this situation, you're not alone. Even if you are placated by running a multi-protocol client there's always that nagging ugliness underneath and the fundamental suckage of what's actually going on. There's also the frustrating knowledge that while developers are spending their energies solving all the urgent compatibility problems they've got no time left over to focus on more meaningful but less urgent shortcomings in the IM world.

We've been IM'ing for nearly a decade now and I don't think it's unreasonable to expect file transfers to just work. But no, it's still mostly impossible to send files over IM. It just plain doesn't work most of the time. In ten years I'd have expected reliable file transfers and perhaps even a better UI than "Hey, here's this file from Dave!" (followed by the inevitable "Whoops, I was off getting another beer, can you send it again?"). Instead, we've left IM client developers the unglorious task of reverse-engineering closed protocols and adding untold layers of protocols and shims just to make all these insular networks look like they're not as fucked up as they really are underneath. Personally, I'd rather they were able to do more interesting development. But my goal here was not to whinge about how IM user interfaces aren't as mature as they could be after a decade of effort. Really.

So how is this any different than email?


So why won't this situation sort itself out? Well, I think there are several crucial differences between email and IM. First and foremost, email was embraced by the business world. Even before public email really started to catch on, businesses were enthusiastically using internal mail. While many of us were wasting our days on FidoNet bickering over which Dr. Who actor was the best our insurance companies were clamoring for a way to link their internal mail with those of their affiliate agencies. Companies across the planet were discovering how useful email were starting to ask why it didn't work with their vendors and customers and partners too. There was a business demand for connectivity and demand drives progress. Even more importantly, email from the very beginning has provided a reliable platform that people could use for important things.

Counter that to today's instant messaging. Among users, IM is generally viewed as a bit of a guilty indulgence rather than a legitimate communication tool. A lot of that perception stems from the transient and ephemeral nature an instant message. While nearly all the clients support logging, it's off by default in most of them. The majority of users simply do not view IM as a reliable or serious medium. Consequently, Instant Messaging etiquette has formed which further reinforces this view. For example, it seems as if most IM users consider it OK to just silently close an IM conversation that's turned boring. Let the other guy just assume you've left the computer. And nobody ever actually expects you to remember that URL that they pasted you in chat the night before -- I mean, not really. If it had been important, they'd have emailed it.

With IM viewed more as a distraction than a tool, and not considered a serious channel for communication, I just don't think we're going to see the same push for unification that we saw with email in the early '90s. Instant Messaging is a crufty and unreliable mess so nobody takes it seriously so nobody cares that it's staying a crufty and unreliable mess. IM just isn't taken seriously enough for the lack of connectivity to truly hurt.

It doesn't have to be this way but not enough people seem to be dissatisfied enough to encourage change. And we're never going to get to that point where IM can be taken seriously until we fix the ugliness underneath it all. All these needless technical distractions and incompatibilities are a severe handicap to innovation and progress. They are the root cause for the relative stagnation in IM.

So back to the point from a few dozen paragraphs ago: IM has barely progressed at all in a decade. We're not doing things today any better, or any smoother, or any faster, or any easier than ICQ did it in 1997. All we've really done is reinvented the wheel four times, creating four isolated networks which all have that same "1997 quality" implementation.

When do we get to the "rant" part? This is boring.


So why am I frustrated by Google Talk? I'm frustrated that Google seems to consider it progress to have merely added yet another isolated network to the mess.

But wait... You thought Google was all about Teh Open! Isn't there that Jabber thing? Well, yes, sort of. The guys at the Jabber Software Foundation have got the right idea. Working with the IETF they've put together a solid set of open protocols and specification describing how instant messaging should be done. A lot of people have embraced this standard, too. Jabber support exists in most of the mainstream multi-protocol IM clients. It's in Apple's iChat. Servers are all over the world and millions of people use it. Jabber is a lot of places. Jabber is the way things really ought to work when it comes to IM.

And yes, since Google Talk uses the Jabber client protocol you can connect to Google Talk with any of the dozens of existing Jabber clients on nearly any platform you can imagine. Out the gate Google Talk supports a lot of third party clients, and client choice is a fine and noteworthy goal. It is an improvement over the other networks in that regard. It's a good thing and I'm happy that Google did it.

But Google has uncharacteristically missed the real strength of the Jabber design. Despite all their self-congratulation about open communications they've only embraced the smaller, less important aspect of the Jabber openness. What makes Jabber truly great is that it is a decentralized system. In exactly the same way as with SMTP email, Jabber allows organizations to run their own servers. It's a truly peer-to-peer system where users connect to their own chosen server and not a centralized single server. The Jabber protocol not only defines how their client software talks to the server but also how the servers pass messages between themselves.

Jabber leverages the robust DNS system just like email, so instead of a flat namespace it's a hierarchy. Unlike a closed network where there can only be one Joe and you'll probably end up having to be Joe103832 or JoeWhoLovesHoagiesForBreakfast, Jabber delegates via DNS for namespaces. My Jabber ID is nugget@macnugget.org. Yours could be you@example.com. When I send you a Jabber IM, it first goes to the @macnugget.org Jabber server which then forwards it on to the Jabber server you use, which knows how to send it to you.

This is a win on a number of levels -- it means that when I send a message from nugget@macnugget.org to another local user on my Jabber server, it never leaves my network. It's easy to see how this is of great comfort to people who value their privacy. On top of that, however, there's always the option of communicating with distant networks in exactly the same manner, with the same application I use to talk to local users. As a Jabber user I send a message to my local Jabber server for delivery, and the server just makes that happen. Since I can run my own server, I have infinitely more control over the whos, hows, whens, and whats of instant messaging.

Sadly, though, Google has chosen not to embrace this most wonderful aspect of Jabber. Instead, they've created just another isolated IM network. As a Google Talk user, a person has a jabber address (@gmail.com, mirroring their email address) but the Google Jabber servers do not talk with the other Jabber servers on the net. A Google Talk user is just as cut off from the world as an AIM user is.

After spending the past few years encouraging my friends and colleagues to embrace the open Jabber standards it's difficult to articulate how frustrating and demoralizing it is to watch them all finally get Jabber/XMPP accounts in the initial excitement of Google Talk and yet be totally incapable of sending any of them a congratulatory message. Heck, if they'd stayed with AIM it would be easier for me.

All Google has done is create yet another closed-loop system. They've made it just a little bit more of a burden for people to reliably have IM connectivity to all their friends. They've made it a little bit harder for people to communicate. They've made it a lot harder for the overall state of instant messaging to progress.

While Google is busy cheerleading their openness and freedom of choice the closest thing to an open network they seem to be considering is pre-arranged formal peering agreements with just a select few of the large Jabber service providers. There are some popular ones out there and it's probably fair to expect that people who use the public @jabber.org Jabber server may someday be able to communicate with @gmail.com Jabber users. But it doesn't sound like Google is considering embracing the true spirit of open communications by using Jabber as it was designed. It's no help for those of us who already have a connection to the public Jabber network. And it's ultimately no help for those people who have embraced Google Talk today and now have the unenviable task of trying to encourage all their friends to join them so that they can have others to talk to.

Jabber holds the promise of true instant message freedom and openness and Google appears poised to default on that promise with the way they've structured their own service.

Imagine if Google had announced gmail last year but only made it capable of exchanging mail with other gmail users. The value of email comes from being able to mail anyone. We need to move instant messaging away from these archaic closed networks and to an open protocol that can scale and allows us to move past implementation development to focus instead on areas where actual innovation can occur.

For now I'm discouraging people from switching to Google's new IM network. It simply does not offer enough benefit to justify further fragmentation of the IM world. We're probably never going to see meaningful innovation and advancement of IM utility until we find a way to get past the horrible plumbing that exists underneath, and Google Talk as it exists today is doing more harm to that goal than good. No amount of vapor or rumor regarding gee-whiz VoIP or search capabilities is going to offset the closed nature of their new network for me.

OK, you've convinced me, gimme my dollar back


The solution to universal instant messaging has to be more than just convincing the entire planet to use the same closed-loop network -- no matter who is running it. We're no better off with centralized instant messaging than we would be if one company ran everyone's email or if one company ran a single, giant web server where we all had pages. It's time to embrace a truly workable and distributed topology that will move us past these ridiculous incompatibilities. Google's vague statements about "federated" peering with other large networks doesn't change things at all. It's still closed if you have to pre-arrange contact and pre-qualify to talk with them.

Google is well-positioned to lead this charge but they appear to have chosen a different route. If you run a Jabber server, please consider sending a polite note to Google at federation@google.com. I'd like to think that if they're flooded with "peering requests" that they'll reconsider their current stance on server-to-server connectivity. I think that now is the best time to encourage Google to consider running a truly open network. Please help.



Addendum 4:51p CDT:
Both Roland Dobbins and Peter Saint-Andre have informed me that I've quite understated the widespread use of IM in the commercial world, particularly within the financial sector. If anything I think that this usage of private Jabber server only serves to underscore the underlying importance for Google to properly open up their servers for s2s communications. That the current Jabber network is even more entrenched than I'd thought only makes my main point more germane.

I've also been told that I sadly neglected to mention UUCP when discussing the state of email past. for!that!ommission!i!am!truly!sorry.

Addendum 29-Aug:
Where I've focused on the impact to users, Drunken Batman has tossed in his thoughts on what the other IM providers think of Google's release. As always, his rumor network is serving him well.

Update 31-Aug:
Google seems to have capitulated (or at least clarified their position). Gary Burd posted to the Jabber developers list clearly stating that Google now intends to support "open server-to-server federation". He also mentions that they've updated the developer page, which they have. It no longer refers only to "any service provider" and now states a goal of "open server-to-server federation." Hooray!

Original text: "We look forward to federating with any service provider who shares our belief in enabling user choice and open communications. We do believe, however, that it is important to balance openness with ensuring that we maintain a safe and reliable service that protects user privacy and blocks spam and other abuses."

New text: "We plan to support open server-to-server federation. We do believe, however, that it is important to have the safeguards in place to ensure
that we maintain a safe and reliable service that protects user privacy and blocks spam and other abuses."

Fri, Aug. 26th, 2005 09:39 am (UTC)
bumperman

A good point, nicely said.

Mon, Aug. 29th, 2005 03:37 pm (UTC)
zakaelri

Please excuse me, but I must disagree. Of course, I am a google fanboi, so please excuse my rabidness to defend that which I love ;)

Your entire point rests on the foundation that Google is not attempting to federate their network with other service providers. However, according to their FAQ:
We could tell you, but then you'd have to promise to not talk about it... Joking aside, Google Talk is still in beta, and we're working hard to add features and make improvements. We're just not quite ready yet to reveal the other cool things we've got planned. We can say this, though: we believe strongly in user choice and open standards, and we are committed to letting users access Google Talk using the client and platform of their choice, as well as to enabling our users to talk with users from other service providers.


In other words, Google is attempting to work together with other service providers to establish XMPP as the standard IM protocol. (We both know it is an IETF standard... but it is not a widely used one--yet).

Why hasn't it put up Jabber gateways to other services, then? Well, besides it being rather rude to barge into another person's network, it presents an opportunity for other providers to attack Google. It is within Google's best interests to prevent and eliminate as much of the risk as possible. Hence, they are planning to open negotiations with several service providers, and get permission before federating. On one hand, it makes them appear to be acting solely in their own interest. On the other, diplomacy involves less lawyers. ;)

As far as connecting with other Jabber networks is concerned: I am sure they have that on their agenda. However, the client was released only a week ago, and you know how Google can be with Betas.

Your writing was impeccable, but your premise is somewhat faulty.
(no subject) - (Anonymous) - Expand

Fri, Aug. 26th, 2005 10:15 am (UTC)
(Anonymous)

Well writen, I am now informed, :)

Fri, Aug. 26th, 2005 10:21 am (UTC)
cowbert

mirabilis.com/icq.com is still torturous :)

Fri, Jan. 20th, 2006 12:52 am (UTC)
(Anonymous): vegatarian

im a vegatarian so i dont eat cow. they are so cute too. great job cow head.

Fri, Aug. 26th, 2005 10:30 am (UTC)
(Anonymous): ...

Jabber without s2s is just as bad as an e-mail system where gmail users only could e-mail other gmail users..

Fri, Aug. 26th, 2005 11:13 am (UTC)
elwbarf: MSLCS

Microsoft's Live Communication Server allows for IM federation: http://office.microsoft.com/en-us/FX010908711033.aspx . It isn't the open, anyone-who-can-figure-out-dns-can-add-a-federation world SMTP is, but it is a small step

Fri, Aug. 26th, 2005 03:49 pm (UTC)
(Anonymous): Re: MSLCS

Yeah, and achieve no more than you can with Jabber for free.
Re: MSLCS - (Anonymous) - Expand
Re: MSLCS - (Anonymous) - Expand

Fri, Aug. 26th, 2005 12:56 pm (UTC)
ext_309: Crazy, but sensible.

Right-o. So I sat, and read the whole post.

Rather interesting points, and well-formed, not to mention well informed.
It's true that IM is more of a toy than a serious tool, and that it's just too scattered and fragmented to be taken seriously. It's pretty sad that I have to run Gaim just to talk to people, most of which have the "People actually use *?" mentality.

It's pretty sad that Gaim and Trillian have to exist, to even make these networks worth using, too. I wish that I could just say, "Here's my IM info: xial@(my domain)", and everyone know just what to do with it.

(at least I get a drop of satisfaction out of using my ICQ number: "Hey, what's your AIM screen name?" "Oh, it's 23249659." "... all numbers...?" "For great justice.")

Fri, Aug. 26th, 2005 04:23 pm (UTC)
nugget: Re: Crazy, but sensible.

Agreed totally. What's worse, the existence of the third party clients on the closed-protocol networks makes it so that nobody can really do anything clever with IM in general. With the majority of clients just aiming for the lowest common denominator of features, and then lying about what they really are, there's no sane way to start building on top of IM to turn it into something that can be taken seriously.

On a side but weirdly-related note, yours is the first OpenID comment I've gotten here on LiveJournal. Quite spiffy! Hooray for interoperability and open standards.

Fri, Aug. 26th, 2005 02:12 pm (UTC)
vixi

I totally agree. I am actually refusing to participate. Oh wow, there are hurricane winds outside, I should turn on the news. I just woke up. No school for me today!

-v

Fri, Aug. 26th, 2005 04:13 pm (UTC)
tycoonjack

jesus, can i get some cliff notes, even r kelly had cliff notes

Fri, Aug. 26th, 2005 04:15 pm (UTC)
nugget

In short:

IM sucks and everyone knows you're faking idle anyway. Now that we have Google Talk it'll be even worse. Cool buddy icon, though!
(Deleted comment)

Mon, Aug. 29th, 2005 02:27 pm (UTC)
(Anonymous)

> the problem with this is that Google Talk opens everything including Gmail in Internet Explorer by default, regardless of whether it's the default browser.

Huh? No. When I played with Google Talk a few days ago it happily opened Gmail in Firefox, in a new tab (well the new tab is a FF setting of course). You must have screwed something up.
(no subject) - (Anonymous) - Expand
(no subject) - (Anonymous) - Expand

Fri, Aug. 26th, 2005 08:02 pm (UTC)
reanimated

you really nailed it with the assessment of the current IM world. it's the only reason i use gaim, stupid-looking POS that it is. i doubt i'd add talk to the pile, but i am interested in jabber. (whaaaat, i'm not a tech person, i'm not on top of these things. heh.) do you think jabber is worth getting?

btw, this is jeff's friend kelly. decibel made me read this. XD i'm not some loony stalker, i swear.

Mon, Aug. 29th, 2005 05:28 pm (UTC)
(Anonymous): Gaim is stupid-looking?

Gaim may be stupid-looking in your estimation, but that's only because (assuming you're a Windows user) you're using a stupid GTK+ theme (the toolkit that Gaim uses to draw its UI). GTK+ is awesome, plenty more usable than Windows widgets and the other major Linux toolkit Qt, so what (I think) you should do instead of complaining is to download a better theme. There are plenty of sites that offer them.

If you're talking about the functionality of the UI being stupid, well, I guess that's your opinion. You could always write patches for Gaim or at least offer suggestions. They're good about listening to their users, from what I hear.

Andrew Conkling
http://aconkling.blogspot.com

Fri, Aug. 26th, 2005 09:07 pm (UTC)
ivo

I'm confused on the following items:

1. IM is not an important concept since nobody uses it for anything important. Yet you are investing a lot of time in trying to consolidate an unimportant feature?

2. Jabber is the solution, you say. I will gladly accept your assessment. Google is using the jabber protocol. The _only_ small little thing that seems to be missing is Google linking their server to the main jabber network. It seems that's a small step that just needs to be performed once they get out of Beta? Or is there more? Yesterday we had this conversation on IRC, which I didn't get then, and don't get now:

I'm saying that the gtalk servers should be public servers.
isn't that equivalent to "linking"/"peering" with a public jabber no.

Fri, Aug. 26th, 2005 09:57 pm (UTC)
nugget

In a less glib reply...

1. I feel that IM isn't treated seriously because it is crippled by the deficiencies I've described above. This issue is important to me because I'd prefer to see IM move past the current fragmentation so people can focus on making it live up to its potential.

2. If Google merely peers with the other large jabber providers it is still not public. It's just a slightly larger closed network. Falling back to my analogy from above, it would be as if Google Mail were called "open" because you could use it to mail both gmail.com users as well as yahoo.com users. slacker.com and ivo.nu are still walled off in their federated peering scenario.

Unless the Google Jabber servers will accept traffic from any other servers on the net, it's a closed network. It would not be possible to route through the sites they have peered with since Jabber traffic is point to point.

Sat, Aug. 27th, 2005 02:10 am (UTC)
(Anonymous): Reasons for not opening up for server-to-server communication

I agree with much of what you write, but I would like to hear your thoughts on these issues:

1. Why do you think Google has chosen to not allow communication to/from the larger Jabber/XMPP network? Are they doing it to lock people in, or are they doing it because they are trying to prevent misuse such as spam?

2. Assuming Google would hook up with the rest of the Jabber community, would that not allow spammers running their own Jabber servers to spam Google Talk users? I would like you to continue the comparison with SMTP and explain why Jabber is not vulnerable to the same problems as SMTP is.

Admittedly I don't receive spam to my Jabber account, but I have always assumed that is because because I haven't posted my Jabber ID publically, and the fact that the Jabber community still is rather small. Or does the Jabber community have a way of preventing spam?

Sun, Aug. 28th, 2005 04:43 am (UTC)
nugget: Re: Reasons for not opening up for server-to-server communication

None of us have any way to really know why Google has chosen the approach they have. On their open communications page for developers they're vague on the subject and keep returning to their on phrase "federation" to describe their ultimate plans for opening up Google Talk.

Joe Beda is one of the Google Talk developers, and from a comment on his blog we learn that Google has not even implemented server-to-server in their code yet. He also raises the same point about abuse/spam countermeasures that Google mentions on their site.

It's a little bit encouraging to know that the server-to-server protocol doesn't even exist in the Google code, since that means it's not something that they could be doing and have disabled intentionally. However, it's also a little bit discouraging that they didn't think it was an important enough feature to build prior to their public launch. I'd have hoped that Google would share the Jabber community's view on server-to-server as part of the foundation of doing Jabber/XMPP messaging.

If we're lucky, the Google folks are just timid about deployment and want to enable functions a piece at a time so that they can prevent problems and make the launch smooth. If we're unlucky, then there's a school of thought inside Google that's been able to block server-to-server for either technical or marketing reasons.

Perhaps Google's marketing folks feel that they won't be able to grow a sufficiently large userbase if server-to-server were available now. Perhaps Google's abuse team just doesn't feel like server-to-server Jabber is understood well enough to be able to evaluate the spam and abuse risks and they've pushed to delay the feature.

There's no way to know for certain, and Google's public position is not encouraging if your goal is a truly open network. The closest they come to promising openness at the moment is the potential for peering with other large IM service providers.

On your second point, there are plenty of differences between Jabber and SMTP that really downplay the risk of abuse and absolutely minimize the risk of spam even with fully open servers. Off the top, Jabber is an ssl-aware protocol and incorporates several layers which make it quite difficult to forge your identity when contacting a Jabber server. SSL certificates can be employed, and dial-back connections where the receiver can request to dialback contact the sender, which completely breaks the ability to lie about who you are. This makes blocking malicious servers or spam-sending servers much less challenging than the same scenario with SMTP as the protocol. There's a much better toolbox of countermeasures built right in to Jabber whereas with SMTP we have very few tools.

Since identity in Jabber is reliable, bad servers can be blocked and untrusted servers can be safely rate-limited to the point where abuse simply isn't a big concern.

Even ignoring all that, Google Talk's current structure already totally blocks incoming IMs for a user from other users who are not already on their friends list. With that feature alone they've already blocked any potential for spams or malicious mails to nothing more than "invite me" floods, which should be trivial to rate limit.

Beyond theory, we know this to be true because there are already several large public Jabber servers (albeit without Google's high profile) that allow unrestricted server connections and spam is virtually unheard of.

Mon, Aug. 29th, 2005 02:19 pm (UTC)
(Anonymous): Woah

Prepare to be slasdotted (http://it.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=05/08/29/1022242&tid=217&tid=215&tid=95&tid=218).
Just thought I'd give ya the head's up. I think LJ can handle the load. ;-)

Mon, Aug. 29th, 2005 02:45 pm (UTC)
jamath: Re: Woah

*pushes glasses up*

Mon, Aug. 29th, 2005 02:42 pm (UTC)
(Anonymous)

you know, you might want to do a little more research before you rant about something. I'm fairly certain that somewhere in the google talk faq/documentation they address s2s stuff and state that they are planning on implementing it at some point. This is only the first beta, of course not everything's going to be working yet.

Mon, Aug. 29th, 2005 02:44 pm (UTC)
nugget

I realize it's a long entry but, you know, you might want to actually read a blog entry before you criticize it for failing to mention issues which are linked from the text. Not only do I know the documentation you mention, it's href'd above.

Cheers.
heh - (Anonymous) - Expand
What - (Anonymous) - Expand
Re: What (TF) - (Anonymous) - Expand
Re: What - (Anonymous) - Expand
Re: What - (Anonymous) - Expand

Mon, Aug. 29th, 2005 03:13 pm (UTC)
(Anonymous): a few nit picks...

Ok.. first of Jabber isn't a protocol. XMPP is.
Secondly to the person that says IM isn't important, I'd have to say that much of my time is spent on IM working with co-workers who are not in the office at the moment. It does help efficiency here.

Now S2S does not equal Federated Servers.
Server to Server means that two XMPP servers can communicate with each other.
Federated means that an XMPP server can talk to an AOL server can talk to an MSN server.

Just my 2 gripes (err.. 3)

I say give Google time.. baby steps here.

Mon, Aug. 29th, 2005 10:32 pm (UTC)
seattlesparks: Re: a few nit picks...

Jabber is a protocol. 'Jabber' is often used to describe the legacy protocol version from before the IETF taskforce and the 'XMPP' RFCs. I.e., the old one with different ports for SSL and normal as opposed to TLS over one port, iq:auth for login as opposed to SASL, etc.

(And unfortunately, Jabber is still often used to describe the modern XMPP stuff, too. Which annoys some folks.)